Mental Health and Divorce
Show Notes:
Thacker Sleight attorneys are joined by Dr. Dan Post, a board-certified clinical and forensic psychologist from Pine Rest Christian Mental Health Services, to discuss the critical intersection of divorce and severe mental health issues. The discussion focuses on bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, and major depressive disorder, examining their symptoms, diagnosis, and impact on family dynamics and legal proceedings. Dr. Post emphasizes the importance of early and evidence-based care, debunks common misconceptions about self-diagnosis through social media, and provides practical advice for those dealing with or suspecting serious mental illness in themselves or their spouses.
Note: Always consult with a legal professional about specific circumstances and cases.
Episode Highlights:
00:00 Introduction
00:33 Guest Introduction: Dr. Dan Post
00:39 Understanding Serious Mental Health Issues in Divorce
01:36 Bipolar Disorder: Identification and Impact
08:26 Schizophrenia: Symptoms and Onset
10:47 Impact on Families and Children
13:22 Tips for Managing Mental Health in Divorce
16:10 Conclusion and Contact Information
Read the Full Episode Transcript:
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Podcast Host (0:03): This Thacker Sleight podcast is hosted by Connie Thacker and Allison Sleight, two experienced attorneys who believe honesty, transparency, and knowledge are key to achieving the best legal outcomes. A variety of topics, particularly those related to sensitive family law matters, are candidly covered by Connie and Allison, other Thacker Sleight attorneys and guests in a refreshing, timely, and practical way for listeners.
Connie Thacker (0:29): Welcome everyone to another Thacker Sleight podcast. We are pleased to have with us Dr. Dan Post from Pine Rest, and today we're going to talk about divorce and serious mental health issues. We see this often in our cases where someone involved in the litigation is suffering from mental illness, and so we're going to talk a little bit today about bipolar, schizophrenia, major depressive disorders, and some anxiety-related conditions. Dan, welcome.
Dr. Dan Post (1:02): Thanks for having me. I'm a board-certified clinical psychologist, and I'm the lead forensic psychologist at Pine Rest. Mental health is near and dear to my heart, from a treatment perspective, but also from an evaluation perspective, and as it applies to things relevant to family court, things like how does this apply to parental fitness, or what do we do if the mother in this situation has a severe mental illness?How does that impact best interest factors and things like that for the children moving forward?
Connie Thacker (1:35): Why don't we break it down? Let's start with just bipolar disorder. What is it? I know enough about it to be dangerous that there's schizophrenia, which is different we're going to talk about, and then there's bipolar, and then there's major depressive disorders. There's all these disorders out there, and so I guess the question is how do you know what somebody has? What is it? Bipolar, doesn't it have two levels? There's bipolar I and bipolar II or something like that, so let's break it down and talk about them individually and how they might impact the divorce process.
Allison Sleight (2:11): Or how you identify them. How do you know you have someone that's dealing with that?
Dr. Dan Post (2:16): It can be really hard just for a layperson to know, hey, my spouse or me are suffering with this very specific condition. There's a lot of work that goes into the identification of symptoms and knowing what's going on with an individual. One thing I love to remind everybody is TikTok is great entertainment, but it isn't actually a DSM-5-TR, which is what we use to diagnose. It's not a stand-in for good medical care. Over 50% of what you see on TikTok related to mental health is inaccurate. If you're using that to diagnose your spouse with a personality disorder or mood disorder, you might not be dealing with good information. Where I work at the Psychological Consultation Center, looking into these conditions, we might do specific testing. Things like the MMPI-3 and things like that are helpful. A good clinical interview where you look at symptoms, where they come from, when they happen are important. As much other information as we can get in terms of talking to somebody who knows them over time, looking at medical records, things like that can really help us hone into what's going on for this person. There's a huge difference from somebody who's in the midst of divorce and has some sadness and some stress. That is not necessarily a serious mental illness. That's probably a healthy reaction to a hard situation. That's much different than somebody who has periods of severe depression where they are debilitated and struggle to get out of bed and may have thoughts of suicide and things like that, and then have other periods where they have an incredible abundance of energy and their behavior shifts, their mood shifts. They may get themselves into difficulty because of some of the choices that they're making and they have less control over. There's different types of conditions that we look at. For this podcast, we are going to focus a little bit on serious mental illness, not just your run-of-the-mill blues or mild anxiety, but the ones we look at most often are bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, and major depressive disorder. Major depressive disorder is just what it is. It's a depressive condition that lasts for a certain period of time and has very specific symptomatology, but it can be really debilitating. It can really impact somebody's ability to go to work, take care of their kids, and maybe a safety concern. That one can be a clinical interview that identifies it. Sometimes it needs testing, but it's easier to identify of the three. Bipolar though, that one can be a little bit more challenging because there's a lot of confounding variables. Substance use patterns is a big piece that impacts this or other factors that can lead to symptoms that may look like it. Like, hey, I didn't sleep for a couple of days. Well, were you on anything? Oh, yeah, I was taking 1,200 milligrams of caffeine a day so I could study. Oh, okay. That might not be a manic condition. Bipolar is identified as you have to have one clearly identified episode of mania and one clearly identified period of major depressive disorder to have that diagnosis.
Connie Thacker (5:30): What's mania? Describe that to us. What does that look like with most people, the mania part? What does that mean?
Dr. Dan Post (5:38): Yeah. Mania is something that is intense. If you've ever sat in a room with somebody who is in the midst of a manic episode, you can just feel the overabundance of energy. It is a significant shift in that person's energy. There's usually a decreased need of sleep for several days and weeks, necessarily. Their behavior might be much more goal-directed, but it also might be much more reckless. You may see an increase in substance use. You may see an increase in promiscuous behavior. You may see illegal behavior. You may even see psychotic symptoms. You see a lot of things that start to spiral into a very clear lack of control.
Connie Thacker (6:20): Oftentimes, we see it in terms of spending. I'm going to go on this crazy shopping spree and spend $10,000 or whatever that I don't have because they think that they do. You sometimes then see the bipolars, really. You have the manic episodes, and then you have the depressive episodes.
Dr. Dan Post (6:42): You can have long periods in the middle of neither, of just kind of euthymic typical functioning. It isn't necessarily a roller coaster that's up and down all the time, but it really depends on one, that person's condition, but also if it's being treated or not.
Connie Thacker (7:00): What's the difference between the bipolar I and the bipolar II? Is there a difference between those two?
Dr. Dan Post (7:06): Yeah, so bipolar II requires that you have had a major depressive disorder and a hypomanic episode. That is kind of a lesser, the symptoms are much more mild than in mania. You maybe have had a decreased need of sleep for fewer days, maybe just three or four days, things like that. There usually isn't as much behavioral intensity, and maybe you haven't been psychiatrically hospitalized because of that condition or end up incarcerated because of that condition. Bipolar II is challenging, though, because it's really hard to discern that often in the cases that I've seen from a substance use problem in that given time, or even other things like a personality disorder. Some of that fluctuation, and there's a lot of overlap in symptoms.Bipolar II would be something, yeah, that is a little bit more mild in the spectrum when it's accurately diagnosed than bipolar I.
Connie Thacker (7:58): How do you get these conditions? Are they hereditary? Is it just your brain is not configured right? How do you get these things?
Dr. Dan Post (8:07): Yeah, so bipolar is definitely a genetic condition, and it has to do with your neurochemistry and those kind of things, but stress, substance use, divorce, there's lots of things that can impact it in terms of lead you into a more depressive period or even kind of an up period.
Allison Sleight (8:26): What about schizophrenia? I mean, at what age do you wake up and have schizophrenia?
Dr. Dan Post (8:31): And what is it really? Schizophrenia is a psychotic spectrum disorder, and it has very classic symptoms of auditory and visual hallucination, delusion, but can also have negative symptoms where maybe you have no motivation and you look very depressed or even catatonic. It's a very significant mental health condition that has different ages of onset. It's later for women, later 20s into the 30s, and for men, it can be younger. It's usually 18 to early 20s there that we see those, kind of that onset. It's usually not a, I went to bed and I didn't have any of these symptoms and I wake up the next morning with all of these symptoms.Usually we see a prodromal phase, maybe where the person has a lot of negative symptoms of schizophrenia, which is kind of that low motivation, not really engaging, and then you might see some of those psychotic symptoms. But usually they start to creep in and then you can have a more abrupt psychotic episode and end up psychiatrically hospitalized or end up not, maybe you're in college and you just can no longer do it. A good thing to kind of consider too is things can push you into a psychotic episode and kind of lead you down that path. One of the big things we're seeing is significant cannabis use can make you kind of can initiate that first phase of psychosis in a schizophrenic episode.
Grant James (10:04): What are the key elements of a psychotic episode? What are you looking for to identify that? Is it like a break from reality or is it some other symptoms or what's the distinguishing feature?
Dr. Dan Post (10:19): Yeah, it's often behavior, right? If you have a delusional belief that Corewell Health is stealing organs from people and then you start to act on that, it's a delusion because it's not something Corewell's doing, but the way you're acting as if that is true, right? So you often see a change in the person's behavior, paranoia, those kinds of things. That is a significant change from what we typically see.
Allison Sleight (10:47): What's the impact on families and children of these various disorders?
Dr. Dan Post (10:53): It can range pretty widely based on how much support the family has and how much the kids are presented with it, but mania and psychosis can be very scary. It can also, some of these delusional periods can lead to very tragic results, infanticide and things like that happen when some of these beliefs are, some of these delusions are really held, that the kids need to no longer be around. So it can have a huge impact on safety, it can have a huge impact on the parent's ability to be around without care. And a big challenge too is the stigma around these conditions and the difficulty with continuing care. So somebody with bipolar disorder can do great on psychiatric medication and therapy and some of those things. But we also know it's a very, some of the medications that are most effective don't feel great and people don't necessarily like to be on them long-term. So they stop their meds because they're feeling okay and they've been okay for a while, but then we know that often two-thirds of these folks have a major episode in the next year. So that continuing care can be really hard. So then you have kids who live in a family where things are, can be volatile or can be unsettled or can be just inconsistent, which can lead to a lot of distress for kids.
Grant James (12:13): We talked about bipolar and schizophrenia quickly, about severe major depressive disorder. What distinguishes that from mild depression or, I guess- Situational?
Dr. Dan Post (12:26): Yeah. So when I think of severe, I think of symptoms that are very debilitating and leading to the person not being able to fulfill the necessary functions they need in a daily life. And they may also have significant suicidal ideation or even attempts and things like that. So a mild depression or even an adjustment disorder, depressive mood, those happen, right? Particularly in the case of divorce, right? You're in a very difficult period of life. But the severe major depressive disorder is one that lasts longer, is much more significant and impactful. And often folks with that condition have several of these episodes over the course of their life, right? So it's not just a one, two-week period of the blues, it might be a couple of months and I had to use, take leave from work and I needed other people to take care of things for a while or, and maybe that's the fourth time this has happened to me.
Grant James (13:22): Do you have any tips if you or your spouse, or you suspect that your spouse maybe is struggling with one of these serious mental illnesses?
Dr. Dan Post (13:33): Get care. Anywhere, right? That, that has, you know, folks who are going to use evidence-based care. So you might first just meet with your primary care doc, you may enlist the help of a therapist, you may see a psychiatrist, but first get care, right? Understand that the earlier you get care, the better. I know there's still a lot of stigma around society about getting care and acknowledging that you're having difficulties, but the earlier you get good care, the healthier you're going to be long-term. So that's huge. But when it's somebody else that you're concerned about having the condition, also just equip yourself, learn about it. Now, don't look at TikTok, but talk to, you know, a therapist or somebody who knows what they're talking about to give you good information. And then again, encourage that evidence-based care and whatever you can do to remove the barriers because often I hear folks talking about their co-pay or talking about insurance barriers or I can't take time off of work. But when you're dealing with serious mental illness, it's so critical that you get that care and there are so many ways to get that care. Like even at Pine Rest, we have a patient's assistance fund that is specifically designed to remove the barrier of cost for folks who have need. And you know, there are ways you can get family medical leave act kind of support so that you can leave work and get the care you need. And in doing so is going to help you be healthier for a long period of time and maybe not lose that job you're worried of losing and those kind of things. And then, of course, understand the risks, use wise counsel, you know, sometimes using a lawyer who really understands mental health and hopefully wouldn't weaponize it, but would understand its impact and how, you know, to use legal means and other ways to make sure that care is done for the kiddos. And then also just kind of have a safety and kind of compassion for the other person dealing with real mental illness, because the better care they're going to get, the healthier they're going to be down the road. And if you're stuck co-parenting with this person for the next decade, a healthier them is going to be better for you and the kiddos.
Connie Thacker (15:35): Yeah, it's really interesting, too, from our perspective of even when we deal with clients who are suffering from these conditions, it's difficult for them to be in the system and in the process, you know, the court system doesn't always have the time to really look at what's going on with these individuals and how to manage them. So it can be extremely difficult for them in litigation. And if you're the spouse and you're not wanting the divorce and, you know, then you're getting depressed on top of it and it just compounds the mental health problems. Well, Dr. Post, thank you so much for joining us today. We really appreciate your insights into these major mental health issues. Thank you.
Dr. Dan Post (16:18): Thank you.
Podcast Host (16:23): Thank you for listening to this episode of our Thacker Sleigh podcast. If you have additional questions, do not hesitate to contact us at 616-888-3810 or visit our website, thackersleight.com for further information.
When divorce intersects with serious mental health conditions, it’s vital to approach these difficult situations with compassion, knowledge, and the right support. Early, evidence-based intervention can make a meaningful difference for everyone involved. If you or someone you care about is navigating divorce while dealing with bipolar disorder, schizophrenia, or major depressive disorder, the experienced team at Thacker Sleight is here to help you move forward with understanding. Reach out to us today to explore your options and ensure you have the legal and emotional resources you need during this challenging time.